Ep 109 — If You Add Something New, You Must Remove Something with Allison Rodman

More initiatives won’t fix burnout if the real problem is overload. We sit down with returning guest Allison Rodman, founder of The Learning Loop and author of Still Learning, to talk about what schools can do when student needs keep rising and educator capacity keeps shrinking. The centerpiece is simple and hard: if we add a new focus, we have to take something away, and we have to be brave enough to decide what is a want versus a need.

We also dig into why change feels so messy between teachers and school leaders and how to stop the constant ping pong. Allison shares what she sees working in districts that redesign systems like observation and evaluation practices: bring mixed role groups to the table early, set norms for growth instead of judgment, and make the conversation transparent from the start. Then we zoom out to professional development and instructional coaching, exploring how to design professional learning that matches real needs using student data, teacher survey data, and observation evidence, plus a practical “learning loop” that helps new learning actually land in team practice.

Finally, we get specific about AI in education. Allison explains how she uses an AI tool as an accountability mirror by feeding it authentic goals and reflections, and why context, privacy, and professional judgment still matter. If you are trying to simplify school systems, protect teacher wellness, and keep the focus on what matters most for students, this one will help you reset.

Subscribe for more minimalist education conversations, share this with a colleague who is drowning in “one more thing,” and leave a review so more educators can find the show.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Return

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Welcome to the Minimalist Educator Podcast, where the focus is on a less is more approach to education. Join your hosts, Christine Arnold and Tammy Musiowski, authors of The Minimalist Teacher and your school leadership edit, a minimalist approach to rethinking your school ecosystem, each week as they explore practical ways to simplify your work, sharpen your focus, and amplify what matters most so you can teach and lead with greater clarity, purpose, and joy.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

This week we are joined by returning guest Alison Rodman, talking to us about any updates she has in effective school systems. Her peer-down pointer is adding more systems or more layers in our systems aren't always necessary. Alison Rodman is the founder and chief learning officer of the Learning Loop and an ASCD faculty member. She's the author of Still Learning from 2023 and Personalised Professional Learning from 2019. She has spent her career helping educators and organizations strengthen their professional capacity through personalized, purposeful learning experiences.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Christine and I are excited to welcome Allie Rodman back to the show. She was on the show in our first season, so she's one of our OG folks. And you did see a little clip of her in episode 99. But we're going to talk more with her about some of those ideas that she dropped to us in episode 99. Welcome back, Allie.

SPEAKER_03 1:58

Thank you so much. I am super excited to be here with you, Tammy and Christine.

Reflection Before Adding Anything

SPEAKER_02 2:03

Well, we're excited to have you. And because you're one of those people that you have so many strengths in a lot of areas. And so we're going to tap into some of those things in our conversation today. But kind of as an update, we wanted to hear from you first. The just thinking about like the last few months of the work that you've been doing, what would you say you've been spending a good chunk of your time, like your kind of top two or three things that have been taking most of your time and your mental energy?

SPEAKER_03 2:38

Honestly, I've been spending a good portion of time at the beginning of this year just in reflection and kind of grounding myself again. I think sometimes in the midst of you know, all of the winter holidays and the new year, we feel this need to take on new things. And I felt like quite honestly, I just had too much. So I spent some time, you know, January, February, even you know, right now, just kind of thinking through like, what am I letting go of? What's not serving me well? And maybe the process this time around isn't about adding a new system, but letting a few of them go. So that's that's been a lot of kind of my personal and professional reflection time. And then working with schools, we've been thinking through how can we help teams perform at a higher level in terms of their conversation, their systems, their collaboration. And also how are we continuing to push one another to grow without necessarily taking on one more new thing, which I feel like happens way too often in education?

Letting Go Of Planner Perfection

SPEAKER_01 3:42

It absolutely does. That is rampant, no matter where I've been. It's happening everywhere. I love that idea of letting go. Do you mind sharing something that you have let go of that you've realized hasn't been serving you very well recently?

SPEAKER_03 3:58

Yeah. So one of the things that I realized, and you know, I think I knew this about myself years ago, Christine. Like I came to the understanding that I love planning and I love building, but I get like stuck in the execution phase. So I was one of those people that would spend like tons of money on stickers, and like my planner looked more like an art project, right? Than it did like an actual tool to kind of push me forward. And then I transitioned and I was like, okay, no more stickers. Like, let's go with like the flare pens and the colored markers instead. And then I was like, okay, but is this really like serving you well? Or are you just like making the plan look pretty and not actually executing on the plan? So, you know, I've definitely gotten to a space where, you know, I'm still firmly grounded in my paper planner, even though I'm such a tech geek. But it's like, no more stickers, no more colored pens, just like give me the black Sharpie and let's go. So, you know, that's one thing I've had to kind of learn about myself and realize. And I think sometimes that's hard, right? Because the stickers are a lot of fun. But if it's like slowing you down from your goals, it's kind of, you know, it's counterintuitive in a way. And then similar to that, I've really been thinking about how I can intentionally use AI. So, you know, the type of person that would like build one more spreadsheet or like one more project and click up or, you know, think through like what are like all of the tasks and things to track and that sort of thing. So I've been thinking about, hey, how can I use AI more as a thought partner to kind of track some of those things for me so that I'm not creating just one more system.

Needs Rising Burnout Rising

SPEAKER_02 5:38

I know that we love systems. We need them. We need them. Yes, we do. Yes. I want to come back to the AI later. I do want to mention though that the flare pens I I got rid of them long ago. I also got rid of post-its a number of years ago. But in recent years, I've brought them back because I'm using them in the execution of things. So I don't just store them and keep them because they make me feel like, you know, new school supplies. But when you mention like in the planning, you're using them versus like executing, I'm like, oh, that's actually okay, that's good. I feel good about my purchase of flare plant pens and using them to like do the writing in the flare pen, not just in the planning. Yeah. So just a connection there. I wanted to kind of piggyback on to Christine's question. So some of the things that you've been letting go of personally and professionally in your role as a consultant. What are you seeing in schools in terms of shift getting them to shift their mindset around like working smarter, not harder? What seems to be the thing that people are kind of trying to sink their teeth into? And what is, sorry, double question here, the thing that they're trying to do, but then like what seems just so hard for them that they can't wrap their heads around it?

Add One Thing Remove Three

SPEAKER_03 7:01

We're at this really challenging breaking point if we think about it, right? We have students coming to school with increasing needs mentally, emotionally, psychologically, in addition to obviously their learning needs, which have always existed. So I think the demand on educators at all levels of the system has continued to increase, right? To meet those needs and to make sure that our students are being appropriately served and growing in the ways that we're committed to as a profession. But then simultaneously, we're also at a high point when it comes to educator burnout. And that's not just for teachers, that's for leaders, you know, across the system. And because of that, we're facing a real retention crisis. So you've got like high need, high burnout, like coming into this explosive space where now we've really got to think about like what's a want versus a need, what is critical versus nice to have. And I think it's beginning to surface some really important conversations in schools and in districts around what are the most important things right now, right? So anytime I'm coaching leaders and they're talking about, you know, moving their staff members in a particular way or bringing on a new area of focus, I really challenge them to think about, okay, if we're adding this thing, what are like the two or three things that we're taking away? Because we can't continue to operate in this space where we're just adding more things to the plate. And I think that's a hard thought exercise at certain points, but it also kind of pushes the conversation around what were the systems, products, services, routines that might have been serving us really well in the moment years ago, but just given current demands and current needs maybe aren't the best system or approach or strategy right now. It's not that we made the wrong choice before. It's that we made the right choice in the right moment. And now we have that same, you know, opportunity in front of us to be able to do that again. So there is somewhat of that sense of loss, I think, in in those conversations, right? Because any type of change with adults brings that sense of loss. But I also am trying to, you know, really partner with leaders and also teachers to think about, but what's the opportunity here? What are we making space for if we can move beyond some of those old practices and old routines?

SPEAKER_01 9:29

And in your experience with teachers and leaders guiding them and supporting them as they think about what they can take away, do you have an experience of who finds it harder? Is it the leaders who find it hard harder to take things away, or is it the teachers that find it harder to actually remove things?

Who Struggles Most With Change

SPEAKER_03 9:48

That's a great question, Christine. I don't know if I've thought about it in that particular context before. I think it's more so about years of experience, perhaps, than role, right? So we get in this place, particularly in a field that demands so much, where we get in our groove and we get in our routine and things feel comfortable and we begin to feel really confident in our practice. And that feels good, especially in work that's really, really complex. So that ease and that lack of friction that we gain often through experience in education, whether we're a teacher or a leader, I think is something we tend to hold on to a bit more dearly, rightfully so, for our own sanity at certain points, than always kind of going after the next shiny ball or the next change, right? Because we've seen those cycles in education before. I think it's folks who are newer to the profession, regardless of age, who are sometimes a little bit more willing to be like, yeah, you know what? Like that strategy didn't work very well. Let me, you know, think about trying out this one or having this conversation or taking that approach instead. They tend to operate with a bit more flexibility, understandably so, right? They they're not kind of as as old to the game, so to speak. They haven't seen all the cycles go through before.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

So it's funny because in this work, too, when Christine and I were doing our first workshops and webinars with the first book, The Minimalist Teacher, you know, we would have principals and teachers in the sessions. And it's funny how you get that kind of conflicting message where teachers are saying, yes, we want things to change and we want to do them better, but the admin, it's it's hard to work with them. And then the principals and admin are saying, well, we want to make change, but the teachers have such a hard time doing this. And so how do you handle then ensuring when you're working with school leaders that the communication is clear, that this is what we're trying to accomplish. So, what are some of those things? I'm not sure exactly how to frame the question, but like, what's the messaging? How do how do people kind of get through like this is what we're trying to do here? And it's going to hopefully make things better for us.

Mixed Role Teams For Better Shifts

SPEAKER_03 12:07

So, as you both know, you know, a core part of my work is around strengthening educator capacity, right? Whether that's the leader, the teacher, support staff member. And along with that, you know, we take that path in different ways. So sometimes it's through the design of professional learning, sometimes it's through coaching, sometimes it's just through thought partnership. But what I'm finding is that the more that I can do mixed role groups when some of that change or that need for shift is happening, the more smoothly the transition occurs. So, for example, there are a lot of schools examining right now their observation and evaluation practices and really thinking like, okay, we haven't moved or shifted our systems in years, possibly like over a decade. So, you know, what does that need to look like? And I'm finding that the districts and the schools that I partner with that are most successful are bringing not just the district and building leaders to the table at the onset of that work, but they're also inviting instructional coaches, they're inviting teacher leaders, they're inviting, you know, leaders of both associations, both the admin association as well as the teacher association, so that really transparent conversations are happening from the beginning. And we're setting the norm that the conversations are happening from a place of growth, not a place of judgment. And I think that's really making a difference in sort of that back and forth ping-pong match that you're describing, right? And this happens in all types of businesses. It also happens just even within like the teacher subset, if we think about it. Like we always have, you know, the mom try like the high school teachers blame the middle school teachers who blame the elementary teachers, right? Like it's kind of cyclical in a way. But I think when you can as much as possible get those folks and those different roles in the same room together, having those open and transparent conversations, the more strongly you position not just the culture, but the communication to move those actions forward.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

And speaking of all of that, I can't help but think about that ping-ponging, as you say, with professional learning. So, you know, often you have professional learning going on that's attached to school plans or, you know, long-term strategic goals or whatever, which is important, but it might not be what everybody is interested in for themselves at that particular moment. But then if you have individual teachers really passionate about something and they really want to go and explore something out, it might not actually filter back into everybody else's practice because it's just their one thing that they're focused on at the moment. So when you think about that ping-ponging idea, but also let's all pull together in the same direction, what are some things that you see that really work with balancing that out?

SPEAKER_03 15:00

So a lot of my coaching and design work, Christine, is really with districts and school leaders to think about how are we creating the professional learning model that's going to address much of what you just described, right? Because part of that is a systems issue where we're just not doing the same level of planning and design with our adult learning practices as we sometimes are on the curriculum front with our student learning practices. So our really strong leaders will often look at student achievement data, growth data, but then they're also looking at teacher survey data and their observation data, right? To say, okay, you know, what do teachers want? What do students need? How do we make all of these pieces fit together in a really intentional and thoughtful way? And a lot of that is about picking the right topics, right, that find that juxtaposition. It's also about thinking how we can creatively structure our time so that we might have certain topics or strategies or approaches that really need to be facilitated all staff, so that we're on the same page, rowing in the same direction, hearing the same message. And then there's other pieces that can be facilitated in smaller groups that may not necessarily be content area or grade level groups, right? We we want to kind of mix up some of those roles a little bit too, to be more attentive to the sixth-grade math teacher who might share a need with the 11th grade science teacher, right? They just happen to both want to explore more around, let's say, hypothetically, formative assessment. Like, how do we get them in the same room together to make sure that those connections are happening? And then along with that, when we do have opportunities for solo professional learning, both within and beyond the school building, how are we structuring that learning loop, if you will, that not just encourages but really invites and invests that learner to bring what they discovered back to their team and fold it and integrate it back into the school community in a way that's that's really meaningful.

Designing Professional Learning That Sticks

SPEAKER_02 17:05

I love that you brought up your learning loop because that's exactly what it is, right? And that's what we are hoping to see in school communities, but it takes such a long time to build in those effective practices, but it's definitely worth it. You you feel the culture difference in schools who have that in place versus schools that don't, or you know, also schools that are trying to get there. Yeah. I'm gonna shift lanes a little bit here because I want to dig into a little bit. I want to get into some nitty-gritty stuff with you. Well, I'm we talked a little bit about the AI just in here a few minutes ago, and then you had mentioned some of the work that you're doing with an AI tool in your video clip on our 99th episode. Off of those, we've had our own conversations about the use of tools. And so I think because you know, AI is just in in so many things that we're doing right now in different capacities, like regardless of someone's role, you can just use tools for like everything. Like plan your life, plan your vacation, lesson plan, school improvement plan, like whatever, right? And you can get some ideas from that. What would you say right now, like maybe a project that you have in your AI tool that you put in and it came out like in this way that you weren't expecting? So, like, you know, just whether it was some ideas that came out or you know, just kind of like talk us through a little bit of that journey with like how you're kind of using that in some of the stuff that you're doing.

Using AI As A Thought Partner

SPEAKER_03 19:00

Yeah, absolutely. So I, you know, this started very organically for me, where I was doing my typical like end-of-year review, and you know, you know, I keep the planner, I have my goals, I do goal tracking. So I like it was like, well, let me just see what happens if I like dump a bunch of this stuff in the same place. Like, what will it recommend? Like, is this even on target with what I've been thinking about, the reflection processes that I've been going through? And yes, it was, right? It was like the quick answer, like the kind of annual goals, then broken down quarterly, then broken down monthly. I was like, okay, this just saved me a lot of time. So let me like just accept that and process that. And also, it was pretty spot on. Now, I will say, like, I've been using the SEAM tool for, you know, almost a year now. So it very much like knows my voice, it knows my brand, it knows the type of work and the phrasing of things that is authentically my voice. Like, I really do embrace authenticity as one of my superpowers, which is why I think I was like so hesitant to kind of jump into the AI pool at first, because my my partners value that, you know, authentic voice for me. And I so appreciate the relationship that I form with them that I was like, oh, I can't. I'm a little bit hesitant here, but then I kind of dip my toe in with those goals. And what I was finding is that I could actually use the tool not just for the goal setting, but for the thought partnership. So naturally, you know, I have my own accountability partners. I talk about them very openly. You know, some of them I send messages to asynchronously on Boxer, others I text with almost every day. You know, there's a group of folks where we get together, right? And we zoom and kind of check in and share ideas and things like that. So I have, you know, as a constant learner, I have those mechanisms very firmly grounded in my practice and appreciate them. But where I felt like I was kind of falling off was the day-to-day. Like I needed someone to like kick me in the butt, so to speak, and be like, no, this is what you need to be doing right now. So one of the unexpected byproducts by, you know, doing that goal formation process was that over the past couple of months, I've now kind of developed this thought partner where I can literally like take pictures of my paper planner of like what got done and what got deferred and what did I just you know drop completely. And it will then, based on the goals that I've set for the year, give me feedback on what my priorities need to be for the next week, right? And then day to day, like, okay, this is how you might want to think about utilizing those power blocks that you've got on your calendar or those connection blocks that you've got on your calendar. So I've really appreciated that more ongoing check in and thought partnership to kind of keep me zoned in on the most. Important things and not get quite as distracted.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

I think you're gonna have to you're gonna have to tell me more about this, Ali. I'm I'm fascinated, I'm intrigued. I, you know, besides the the questions about you know AI use that might be more broadly in society, I my personal I use AI all the time, but I'm very cautious about it taking over my thinking, if that makes sense. Like I get really worried when I'm like, oh, I should do this creative thinking for myself or this problem solving for myself. I'll let it do like little admin tasks, write me an email, that sort of thing. But I get really cautious when I'm like, oh, I'm letting it think for me. And I don't know if I want to go down that path. So do you feel like you're you're kind of more comfortable with that sort of zone, or are you actually just using it to help organize and structure things a bit more?

SPEAKER_03 22:54

So I'm not necessarily more comfortable with that zone. I think what has made me value this type of tool is that what fed into the system initially, right? Sort of the data, because we all know like AI is only as valuable as like the data that we're giving it, right? Or the the information that we're providing. So I think what's made it feel like more of a flow for me is how real and authentic the data was that I was providing. So, you know, I had gone through that personal and professional reflection process first. I had had many conversations with like real human thought partners who were like, no, Allie, like this is your blind spot and this is where you're getting stuck, or like, I don't think you really need to do that, right? Like the very nice kind of calling each other out that respectful and critical friends have for one another. So I was able to take a lot of that human data and allow the system then to hold me accountable to that human data. To be able to say, like, hey, you know what, you're doing that task right now because you like to do it, not because it's the most critical task right now. And to be able to have that mirror, if you will, I think is where a lot of the value has come for me. Because we know, you know, the work that the three of us do, as well as the work that teachers and leaders do, can be really isolating. You know, I think back to my times in the classroom. Like you go in, you close the door, you got like 30 humans that you're responsible for. And the idea of having someone that you can kind of, or something, I should say, right, that can kind of show you the mirror in relation to your own values because you've been open about those, I think is a really important tool. And it's certainly been helpful for me when I think about where I'm structuring my time. I mean, there are times that it has literally been like, no, it's Friday, it's three o'clock. You said this is your shutdown time. Like, we'll talk again on Monday, right? Like, and and that's sometimes that, you know, I need sort of that slap in the face to be like, shut it down, go to like the glow dance with your daughter, go prom shopping with your other daughter, go pick up your son at college. Like we we need that voice in our heads too.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

Yeah, absolutely. I definitely like what you said there about it's it's the human element is in there as well. You're talking and having those conversations with professional colleagues as well. So it's not just not just us and our computer making these decisions.

SPEAKER_03 25:26

No, I don't ever want to get to that point for sure. But I think it is nice though, you know, I'm able to take like voice-recorded conversations that I've had with people, right, who have been giving me advice and been like live thought partners for me, and then take like the transcript of those and use it to guide future decision making. I think there's real power there. So there's that combination of authenticity, but then also efficiency and direction in a way that I don't know we're leveraging to the extent that we can be across the profession right now.

Context Privacy And Ethical AI Use

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Yeah, and I think just your experience on in your back end on with this kind of tool, I think can really help schools that you work with as well. So, because everybody's in with some kind of AI, right? And so as long as people are think about it the same way that you are, or that how we're using it, right? Like you really have to, you kind of have to train it, right? Like it's you do have to put that quality information in because if you give it a one-liner prompt, you're gonna get out some kind of malarkey that says like it doesn't meet your need. So yeah, and that's been some of the work that I've been doing with teachers too, right? Like they want to use it for planning, great, but you can't be the end all be-all of what your planning looks like. Have you in your work with schools been using AI tools, or has that been a thing that you haven't had to touch on?

SPEAKER_03 26:52

So I have been, Tammy. And I think you know, what you just stated was so important, right? That it's about the context. It can't be that one-line prompt, right? You've got to think about like, who are the students in front of you? What do they actually need? You know, what do your teachers actually need? You know, how much data do you want to share in certain places for privacy reasons, right? I think we we have an ethical responsibility to be responsible there. I've been sharing a lot about like my own personal and professional data and what I'm comfortable sharing. But as stewards of school communities, we we need to be thoughtful about how we're using some of that data, even for the right purposes, right? And I think there's also an imperative here that we not follow the tool blindly, right? So if you get that lesson plan back and you're like, wow, this feels like totally off for my students and their needs. I mean, there have been times that I've gotten a response and I'm like, wait, it's missing this component or it's missing this value that's really important to me or this priority that I don't know whether I told you about it or I didn't. Like it could be on me, it could be on, you know, the chat bot, I'm not sure. But to still have our wits about us as thoughtful professionals to be able to push back and say, no, actually, this isn't what's best for kids, or this isn't what's best for me as a professional, I think is an important part of the dialogue we need to be having as well.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Yeah, there's been a couple of times where I've could have sworn the AI had like got brain fog or something like this, like really weird, bizarre things start happening. Yeah. Absolutely.

The Tear Down Pointer And Closing

SPEAKER_02 28:30

So, Allie, I think we're almost we're at our tear-down pointer time already, which comes so quickly in our conversations. Do you have for our listeners or what tear-down pointer do you have for our listeners in this episode?

SPEAKER_03 28:47

Even as someone deeply committed to systems, we need to recognize that more systems and more layers aren't always necessary and aren't always the answer. So sometimes the next step forward is thinking about how are we paring down? How are we pulling back? How are we taking the easier path around the mountain instead of trying to create, you know, and blaze like one more trail forward and really thinking about how are we making space for things as much as we add new things to our daily action plans?

SPEAKER_02 29:23

Thank you so much, Allie. You know that we love removal and edit a declutter as well. So that sounds perfect to us. Thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you. I appreciate you both.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

This episode is sponsored by Plan Z Education Services, supporting educators with forward-thinking professional learning that puts both student impact and teacher wellness at the center. Driven by a vision to teach less, impact more, they help educators find purpose, prioritize what matters, and simplify their practice. Learn more at planzeducation.com.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

Thank you for listening to the Minimalist Educator Podcast. Join Christine and Tammy and guests again next time for more conversations about how to simplify and clarify the responsibilities and tasks in your role. If today's episode helped you rethink, reimagine, reduce, or realign something in your practice, share it in a comment or with a colleague. For resources and updates, visit plan zeducation.com and subscribe to receive weekly emails. Until next time, keep it simple and stay intentional.