Episode 105: Grammar That Sticks with Patty McGee

Grammar doesn’t fail because kids “just don’t get it.” It fails when we teach it like a scavenger hunt of labels and then hope it magically shows up in student writing the next day. We sit down with national literacy consultant and author Patty McGee (Not Your Granny’s Grammar) to make grammar simple, usable, and surprisingly engaging by putting the sentence back at the center of instruction. 

We talk about why worksheets and identification-heavy lessons so often lead to boredom and zero transfer, and what to do instead: sentence composition, sentence combining, and sentence expansion. Patty shares a minimalist, research-aligned way to “declutter” grammar so students learn the building blocks of writing while teachers reclaim time and clarity. We also dig into scheduling realities inside the ELA block, especially in schools leaning hard into phonics and the science of reading, and why protecting writing time is essential for literacy growth. 

You’ll hear a practical system for teaching grammar in short, consistent pockets throughout the week, then looping those concepts into drafting, revising, and editing across multiple writing pieces. Patty also offers an easy-to-copy routine, the daily two-minute edit, plus a low-cost manipulative that transforms one mentor sentence into endless grammar practice. If you want grammar instruction that actually sticks and supports better writing, hit play, then subscribe, share with a colleague, and leave a review so more teachers can find the show.

This episode is sponsored by Patty McGee. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Welcome to the Minimalist Educator podcast, where the focus is on a less is more approach to education. Join your hosts, Christine Arnold and Tammy Musiowski, authors of The Minimalist Teacher and your school leadership edit, a minimalist approach to rethinking your school ecosystem, each week as they explore practical ways to simplify your work, sharpen your focus, and amplify what matters most so you can teach and lead with greater clarity, purpose, and joy.

SPEAKER_04 0:47

On this week's episode, we're joined by Matty McGee to talk about literacy, specifically crama. Her pay down pointer is a simple, powerful, free gift, which is a two-point edit. Patty McGee is a naturally recognized literacy consultant, speaker, and educator, with a passion for transporting clusters and spaces where language and learning come alive. With decades of experience as a teacher, coach and advocate for delightful literacy practices. Padding has worked alongside educators across the country, trying to unlock the full potential of their students to innovative and practical teaching strategies. Not your granny's grandma is her third book.

SPEAKER_03 1:30

Welcome everyone to this week's episode of the Minimalist Educator Podcast. Christine and I are joined this week by Patty McGee, who is a literacy specialist and author. Welcome to the show, Patty.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Why Grammar Felt Like A Black Hole

SPEAKER_03 1:47

Yeah, thank you for reaching out. We are always excited when people find us and want to have conversations with us about what they're doing in their roles. And so if you can just give us kind of a snapshot of like right now, you really focus on grammar and making it, like your book is called Not Your Granny's Grammar, which is very messy. And so what kind of led you to that point and to focus really on grammar, teaching grammar and making it more than kind of what teachers might think it is.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Yeah, it started about 30 years ago or so when I was a brand new teacher. And I realized that as somebody who did very well in school in terms of literacy, that that did not equip me for teaching literacy well. Because I didn't work through struggles, I didn't have any experience on teaching others how to work through struggles, let's just say. And so I just did a deep dive of self-study of ways that I can support readers and writers. And then in the midst of all of that was the black hole of grammar, where when kids would engage with what I supplied them with, which was usually a worksheet or an exercise in memorization or identification, it just lost its charm, the literacy block. It was really ineffective and very boring. So I mean, I'd even go for boring if it was effective, but it wasn't. So that is how I learned grammar. I taught in the same school that I went to. So I know my teachers had their best intentions in mind, just like I did when I was using these practices. And so fast forward in my head, I was thinking over all of the years of what can I do to really refresh and perhaps even reinvent how grammar is taught and learned. And about, I want to say 10 years ago or so, I was working with a school district on writing grammar curriculum. And the supervisor then was Tim Dunighu, who turned out to be my co-author, not your Guinese grammar. We were writing grammar curriculum, as I said, and he could explain grammar to all of us grown-ups in that room, like nobody else ever explained it. And we were all like, oh, okay, well, I didn't remember that, or uh, I get it now. And you know, we're all teachers, and there's an assumption that we as teachers must be grammar experts already. So seeing him explain it all, and then I did the instructional side of things because I had been dabbling in different ways that we can, and very simple ways, just let me also say that we can support engagement in grammar learning so that it's impactful. And so the two of us joked, like, we need to write a book one day. And then it really started to evolve. We were we were experimenting in lots of different classrooms and asking teachers to pilot things for us and holding workshops where we were teaching this approach, and we were finally then able to have enough information and also confidence to be able to put this all into a book.

SPEAKER_04 5:34

Oh, what a journey. That's awesome. I reflecting on what you're saying, I myself as a student very much hit a whole language time in Australian education. And I don't remember anyone mentioning even a noun or a verb to me the whole time I was at school. It's okay. I did okay. It's all right, everybody. But you know, now as a teacher, as you say, like there's so there's so much out there. You know, we've got all these English language learners, there's so much grammar to think about. Do we really need all of it, Patty, or is there some that are like more important than others? Where do you stand with with uh how to declutter a little bit?

Teach Grammar Through Sentence Building

SPEAKER_01 6:15

Yes. The place that I stand firmly is teaching grammar through sentence composition, sentence combining, and sentence expansion. Number one, because the research says that. Number two, because the sentence is the container of all parts of speech and the building blocks of writing. And so if we can focus at the sentence level and use manipulatives for kids to play with grammar concepts, those two areas of focus can really help us zoom in on what's most important, what's most effective, and really let go of the other stuff. We don't need diagramming sentences. Although a lot of people love that, it's not necessarily effective. That's more about identification. And one of the things I found is that identification first in grammar instruction is actually something that is very difficult. And yet it's the one of the main opportunities that we give kids is to identify and then this immediate expectation that they should be able to use what they identified the next day. It's like the only subject where that, like, okay, I taught it to you yesterday, or I thought I taught it to you yesterday. It's on a worksheet, but how come you don't know it today and forever? Like it's it's really then zooming in on construction of sentences, combining of sentences, expansion of sentences. And then through that, we'll be able to identify the most important words or vocab of grammar because we're experiencing sentences.

A Simple System For ELA Time

SPEAKER_03 8:11

That's very, I guess, uh profound in a sense, right? Because teachers are taught different ways to teach things. And often we just kind of revert back to how we were taught anyway, regardless of what we learned in the program, because it might be comfortable to us. And so you talking about that kind of like manipulation of sentences and and breaking them apart really has to like teachers really need to get to feel comfortable with doing that. Because right now I'm coaching some teachers who are struggling teaching writing. So they've been really heavy this year into the phonics instruction, but they haven't done much writing. And I'm like, ooh, this this is tricky. So how would you, and I don't know if this might be like an ELA structure time, maybe, but how would you structure an EA ELA block to really dig deep into like the grammar crossing over to the writing piece and not just have it as like a separate standalone thing?

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Yes. So I first want to say I think you're wise to be concerned about writing not getting the attention it needs through the movement of the science of reading. There's many places that have just gotten rid of writing altogether because they're making space for an exorbitant amount of phonics. And not writing when you're learning phonics, and I'm not talking dictation, I'm talking creation on the page, is something essential in terms of holding on to all things phonics and word learning. When it comes to grammar, I really like grammar to have its own little pocket, much shorter than probably most word study or phonics expectations that are out there. And I want us to think about grammar maybe three to five times a week, 10 minutes at a time, and that it is grammar experiences that we're offering to students where grammar know-how accumulates over time. So we're not looking for mastery from 10 minutes once, but I do like it to have its own little space because the application into writing needs some background knowledge built about grammar. And then if it's okay, since we're on video, if I could show you a little chart that I put together of how we can then bring that into writing. So I like to think of grammar in units, which I know is also kind of different. So let's say our first unit is on simple, compound, and complex sentences, and we spend 10 minutes three to five times a week across, let's say, six weeks. We know that grammar is not linear, it is not simple, it is something that is, you know, there's a lot of depth to it. So we need to give it the time and space that it needs. And I'd also be happy to send you a picture of this if you'd like it for the show notes. But basically, what this chart is saying is in a piece of writing, when you've taught about your simple, compound, and complex sentences, we bring that in and show kids how to apply it in editing. And then in the next piece of writing, we bring it in during revising. Where at the same time we'll have had another focus of a grammar unit, and then we loop that in. Let's just say this is on agreement. We loop that in during the editing phase. And so, as you can see with the colors here, in the next writing piece, we bring it into drafting our first sentence unit, and then into revising our second unit on agreement. And then at the same time, we'll have been studying another grammar concept or usually a collection of concepts that relate to each other. So it's giving almost like a system of okay, we're gonna study this, get to know this, and I'm gonna let other things go for now in grammar. And then when it is time for that application, time for instruction on how to apply this approach of studying grammar at the very end, we create, co-create in a classroom, teacher with students, a tool that will help them with application. So something, let's say, about how simple, compound, and complex sentences are built. And then when we get to that time in our writing, we pull that tool out, or we'll still have it maybe hanging up so we can always reference it. So there's multiple entry points, very simple entry points and experiences that kids can have over time. And then we intentionally build in lessons, feedback, whatever it might be around those concepts that we went deep with.

SPEAKER_04 13:51

So am I right that you you've mentioned the multiple entry to the content, but we it also looked like you're having multiple repetitions while building that complexity. Is that is that what it's all about?

SPEAKER_01 14:04

That's also it sure is.

What Schools Often Get Wrong

SPEAKER_04 14:05

Yeah, very cool. Do you find you don't you talked about units of grammar? Do you find that there is a common one that people do too early or just oh like too repetitively, they just get stuck on it? Do you find something that commonly comes up?

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Yes. I find that there's a belief, and I used to hold this belief, that if we can't identify what a noun is, how can we actually even write a sentence? And so we'll just do a lot of identification of nouns and verbs and feel like we need to front load all of that before we do any writing at all. And both things need to happen simultaneously, except the practice of identification needs to find a less emphasized place in it all because we will learn to identify by being able to, like I said, build sentences. So I find that that isn't a fruitful experience. I know a lot of places that will have like six weeks grammar front-loaded. That's also kind of like having phonics without having writing. It's a really missed opportunity for kids to grow their grammar know-how beyond that grammar time. And when we front load it at the beginning of the year and we expect usage for the rest of the year, that's not realistic. It's not something that students can really do. And so those are a couple of things that I see that I think aren't as effective as other approaches.

Better Writing Feedback With One Focus

SPEAKER_03 15:55

For teachers who are maybe newer to teaching writing or just newer teachers, what would you suggest? Because a lot of teachers have programs that they have to teach, but many have a bit of wiggle room and they can, you know, tweak according to what suits their kids. What would you recommend to a new teacher who is, you know, they're they're trying to teach writing, but they really notice, you know, there's so many things to teach in writing. What would the entry point be, or what would the starting point be to be, I guess, a sense of success to start, right? Especially if some teachers are just starting, you know, like a few months into the year and they haven't really had a regular writing focus.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

Yes. So there's a couple of things that I think about, and a lot of them are shifts in mindset that can be very helpful. And if I may, share a metaphor outside of school that I got the pure pleasure of observing for years of my life, and then relate that back to your question. My dad years ago wanted to learn how to crochet. And my aunt Helen was a master crochet or is a master crochet, and that's his sister-in-law. And as he was learning how to crochet, she would come and teach him. Now she wasn't a teacher, but the first thing she did was think today, when I look at Peter's blanket and I talk to him about what he's done so far. What's one thing I can teach to help him become a better crocheter? She was not looking for perfect blankets. She knew that there's evolution of learning. And that's a really hard one, a hard like mindset shift in writing. I understand. Let me describe a little bit more of what she did because it's very simple and practical. So she'd sit down next to him and she would say, So tell me about your blanket making. Let's see. And he would usually say something self-deprecating, like, This is this blanket is in the shape of Australia. And she would say, Yeah, but look here at the stitching. You were probably counting. And then she would think, What's the one thing I can teach Peter right now that's going to help him be a better crochet? And perhaps it was fixing some holes in it. She would not worry about the shape of the blanket. She would not worry about the edging. She would show him how to fix the hole. She would bring out her own crocheting materials and show how she fixes a hole. And then basically coach him as he's trying it, where he's like maybe messing it up a little bit. So she'll model again. Now that was a long period of time where they would spend together. But for new teachers in the classroom, and I just also want to say for veteran teachers in the classroom as well, none of us, unless there's something, someplace that I have not heard of yet. I've heard of one teacher who was taught how to teach writing in her master's program. So most college prep, I mean teacher prep colleges do not really go into the methods of teaching writing. And so we all default into assign and assess. And there isn't really actionable feedback in between. So I think this really goes for most of us. So the first step might be like put a goal in our mind. I want to help this writer become a stronger writer. Let's focus in on one thing that we can look for. So that might be elaboration, let's say. And we'll look at the writing. We might ask the writer a little bit about what you have done to elaborate. And they'll say, I use lots of facts. And we name that strength, just like my Aunt Helen did. That is true. You used a lot of facts. All of these are facts. And when you use facts, the information is really well translated to your reader. Now that you've done that, because you've done that, I want to show you a next step that you could take. You could clarify or explain those facts as well. That's going to be something your reader might appreciate. And so let me show you how. And very quickly, I show them how. I give over, like maybe a sticky note with the steps on there. If they're feeling comfortable with it and they are able to do it, I don't linger long. I can always loop back and see how it's going. And so that that keeps it very brief, that kind of structure and that kind of mindset. So for new teachers, if we lean on that structure of put a focus in our mind, name something that's strong, consider a next step and teach it. And we can always do that in small groups. We could do that whole group, it can be one to one. It's just really simplifying the whole experience. We're not bringing in, we don't need a lot of slides, we don't need fancy printouts with lots of well, in the 90s we called it clip art. Um, you know, just a lot of fru fru. It doesn't need to be pretty. So that we can we can purge that and instead find a rhythm in how we give feedback. Pick a focus, name a strength, share a next step.

SPEAKER_04 22:16

And what a beautiful way to differentiate and tailor to every kiddo that you have in front of you. That's really cool. I just can't, I feel like we need to mention because you said about manipulatives and not so much of the you know worksheets over and over again. Could you possibly share some of your favorite manipulatives that you've seen and different age groups, maybe? What would we be wanting to say?

Low Cost Grammar Manipulatives

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Sure. One of my favorites, again, super simple. Take a sentence or two or three that we really like, that is pretty accessible to the students that we are teaching, and type it on a document and enlarge the font, and then go ahead and cut out each word and each piece of punctuation, put them in a baggie, and then in partnerships, students will take those words and they can use those words over and over and over again. They don't, it's not just one time, they're not trying to recreate the original sentence. I'm going to show them the original sentence, but together they'll make as many sentences as they can in say like eight minutes. And it doesn't really cost anything. And it can be used again and again, and partnerships can share with each other. So there's just one simple example there of a manipulative that can be used tomorrow.

SPEAKER_03 23:47

I love that so much. I share some ideas similar with teachers often, just the simplicity of taking something and cutting it apart and making making it into something new or practicing the rearrangement of it. It's just, you know, it's a different type of thinking, a different type of brain exercise. So thank you for sharing that. We've got just a couple of minutes left with you, Patty. Do you want to share a quick teardown pointer with our listeners? You've said tons, but maybe there's just another thing you want to share that kind of pops out to you.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

So one of my favorite, as I like to call simple, powerful, and free things that we can do. Pretty much that's all I've shared here. I'm into I call it SPF approved, simple, powerful, and free approved, is a daily two-minute edit. We're seeing a lot of grammatical mishaps, let's say, because sometimes grammat grammar doesn't need to be followed to the T if it's intentional. But sometimes we wait until the very end to do any editing. And if we want that editing muscle to really stay strong and continue to grow, simply setting a timer for two minutes and saying to students, we're not instructing during this time, go back to your piece and edit it. Edit it for spelling. We could give them a focus or edit it for spelling, punctuation, and capitalization. And two minutes on that. It won't be the whole piece. Just try it out and make sure that it's as sound as it can be.

Links, Sponsor, And Listener CTA

SPEAKER_03 25:35

Thank you so much, Patty, for joining us today. Um, you've definitely given me some little tips too to bring with uh with me to coach teachers. Thank you again for being with us. We're gonna have all of your links to your books and everything in the show notes. And so thanks for being with us.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

It's so good to be here with you. Love the conversation.

SPEAKER_04 25:56

This episode is brought to you by Patty McGee, National Literacy Consultant. Tired of grammar worksheets that go nowhere? Patty helps teachers replace the old fixed approach with a simple strengths-based method that makes writing and grammar instruction actually stick and enjoyable for everyone in the room. Visit PattyMageGee.org to learn more.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

Thank you for listening to the Minimalist Educator Podcast. Join Christine and Tammy and guests again next time for more conversations about how to simplify and clarify the responsibilities and tasks in your role. If today's episode helped you rethink, reimagine, reduce, or realign something in your practice, share it in a comment or with a colleague. For resources and updates, visit planzeducation.com and subscribe to receive weekly emails. Until next time, keep it simple and stay intentional.