The Minimalist Educator Podcast
A podcast about paring down to focus on the purpose and priorities in our roles.
The Minimalist Educator Podcast
Episode 086: Coaching Without The Chaos with Lindsay Deacon
Coaching doesn’t fail because we lack strategies; it fails when our calendars, agendas, and relationships pull us in ten directions at once. We sit down with instructional coaching coordinator Lindsay Deacon to get practical about navigating principal friction, protecting energy, and keeping the work simple enough to sustain. From her early leap into coaching and time with Jim Knight and John Hattie to designing programs at scale, Lindsay brings field-tested moves that work in real schools with real constraints.
We explore what to do when a principal blows off meetings or moves faster than information can travel. Lindsay’s approach starts with composure and listening: arrive with a few sharp coaching questions, mirror their immediate priorities, and align support without adding noise. You’ll hear why dropping your agenda, finding human common ground, and “witnessing the good” can flip the tone of a building. We dig into the mantra that changes everything—people are motivated by their goals, not yours—and how that one shift boosts buy-in, clarity, and measurable progress for teachers and students.
Boundaries become a performance tool here. Lindsay shares a simple script: “My heart says yes, but my calendar says no”, that rescues focus during peak seasons and retrains colleagues to respect capacity. We talk about energy resets through offline hobbies like horseback riding and unexpected lessons from the FBI Citizens Academy: open-ended questions, rapid trust, and reading body language translate directly to high-impact coaching. Plus, a sneak peek at her next project, a presenter survival guide packed with solutions for group facilitation’s thorny moments.
If you’re a coach, teacher leader, or admin who wants fewer tasks and better outcomes, this conversation offers clear language, usable frameworks, and renewal for the long haul. Subscribe, share with a colleague who’s juggling too much, and leave a review telling us which strategy you’ll try first.
This episode is sponsored by Next Adventure EduCoaching.
Find our book The Minimalist Teacher and Your School Leadership Edit: A Minimalist Approach to Rethinking Your School's Ecosystem at the links!
Follow on Instagram @PlanZEducation and @minimalist_ed_podcast.
The Minimalist Educator Podcast is a Plan Z Education Services adventure.
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator Podcast, where the focus is on a less is more approach to education. Join your hosts, Christine Arnold and Tammy Muziowski, authors of The Minimalist Teacher and your School Leadership Edit: A Minimalist Approach to Rethinking Your School Ecosystem. Each week as they explore practical ways to simplify your work, sharpen your focus, and amplify what matters most so you can teach and lead with greater clarity, purpose, and joy.
SPEAKER_02:On this week's episode, we're joined by Lindsay Deakin, who talks to us about instructional coaching. Her peer-down pointer is a great reminder that other people are not motivated by your goals.
SPEAKER_01:Lindsay Deakin is an instructional coaching coordinator in Las Vegas, Nevada. Lindsay has worked under Dr. Jim Knight's leadership on his instructional coaching team and on Professor John Hattie's Visible Learning Team at Corwin Press and recently designed, developed, and implemented an instructional coaching program for NWEA. Outside of her professional work, Lindsay's greatest passions are exercising and rereading a Game of Thrones. She also impersonates flight attendants from time to time.
SPEAKER_03:And so we are excited to talk about some of the fun things that she does because she has a very interesting approach to coaching. Welcome to the show, Lindsay. Hi, thanks for having me. I want to get into right away. Well, I want to ask you a bunch of things, but we'll start with the first thing. Tell us how you got to where you are and how you came up with some of your ideas around the EduCoach survival guide. Because that's an interesting approach to a guide.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. I have a pretty strange and like non-traditional, I guess, story in that when I was still pretty early in my career, I was asked to become an instructional coach by my school district and was sent out to Lawrence, Kansas to go to gym nights, like the mothership, the initial instructional coaching workshop. And then after a little bit of time coaching, returned to the classroom, then went back to coaching, you know. But coaching was just, it was so unstable. And it still is, I guess, in most places. But because it just didn't seem like much of an opportunity anymore in my immediate district, I just shot Jim Knight an email like one afternoon that was like, hey, I don't know if you remember me, but like every all of your work just resonates with me. I think about it and I use it every day. So if you ever need like somebody to make your coffee, you need an assistant, like just know I'm available. And he actually responded, like, well, I'm putting together a team. And if you would like to apply, let's let's go there. And so I was added to his team with some really incredible, amazing people like Peter DeWitt and Johnny Donahue, who do a lot with leadership and collective efficacy, Kara Vandis. There were just so many incredible people at the table. And so I just kind of then got looped into visible learning with John Hattie's group. And so just the most incredible professional learning opportunities while also then working full-time in a school district, either as a teacher, a coach, or leading a coaching program. But what I found with a couple of my teammates was that no matter how much research and how much theory and how much connection even I had to like all of the experts, when you really get down to it in the day-to-day work as a coach, like it just doesn't go as planned. And so I was collecting all of these strategies and stories from coaches who were like making it work despite some really crazy scenarios. And my co-author and I, we had worked together for years and we were like, should we write a book? Do we know how to write a book? Can we write a book? And so we just thought, let's share people's stories, let's share these like tried and true, vetted strategies that people on the ground are using that are still backed by research. And that's how we came up with the EduCode survival guide.
SPEAKER_01:And yeah, that's kind of where we're at. So I know that these strategies are going to be varying depending on the context you're in and the people that you're working with. But do you have some favorite ones that you that you know are really, really powerful and effective that you could share with us? I'm dying to know.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, they you know what's funny is a lot of them are contextual, but at the same time, we were hearing the same scenarios pop up over and over and over again. I don't know what my problem was, but I just seem to continually work with principals who had a very different approach to coaching than me. So there was always a lot of friction. So there is a chapter that's really devoted to like scenarios with working with the principal. And so some of my favorites are like basically the principal's blowing you off left and right, doesn't see to see a need to meet. And so, how do you kind of a build a relationship, but then also like pass on the important work that instructional coaching is having, because we all know that like if the principal doesn't support the coaching program, it's gonna be really ineffective no matter how motivated the coach is. Also, I would say there's a scenario that's called coach lost their cool, which is me, because like sometimes we just snap and we yell at people, whoops, you know, you gotta like make amends, make apologies, like you're under a lot of pressure, especially because you're kind of like the the advocate for teachers, but then you're also the liaison for like all the instructional programming from the top. So it's a lot, it's a heavy, it's a heavy load, right? So those are probably my two favorite that come up for me.
SPEAKER_03:Can you talk a little bit more about the that friction? So, how do you maneuver that when you are set to work with some teachers and this is the vision, but it's not quite in line with what the principal thinks or wants. So, how do you navigate that?
SPEAKER_04:Well, I think over time, at the end of the day, we have to like remember it's a job, right? And it does feel very personal and our identity is really wrapped up in our roles, whether you're a teacher, you're a coach, you're a leader, and the work we do with students is really personal. But the end of the day, like it is business. And so being a role model and remaining professional and like keeping calm and composure is always at the forefront of what we do. And so if you're constantly super busy and you're saying yes to everything, then you're just not really having the ability to like stay calm and composed. Just it does that make sense. And so then on top of that, once you you kind of like get get yourself straight first, then just really being a listener in meetings with principals, because I think what we find when we talk with school leaders is that they are so busy putting out fires and answering people's questions and fielding, you know, parent concerns, teacher concerns, student issues all day long that they're moving at a different speed in their mind and their body. And so while it is in a like a coach may really want to communicate a lot of information to the principal, it's actually a lot more effective if you come prepared with just some really good coaching questions. Listen to what is going on with the principal, listen to what their pressing needs are. And that is a really significant way to just build a relationship with anybody, right? Is be a listener. And that is true with leaders as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I can identify a lot with what you're saying there about that kind of getting stuck in the in the middle a little bit. I can definitely see that playing out in different contexts for sure. So knowing that, that you depending on what's going on in your particular school environment, that you might have that sort of fraught friction thing going on, how do you, besides just remaining calm and reminding yourself this is a job and this is, you know, this is just my workplace, this is not me. How do you keep your energy and your motivation going to keep you being present and there and serving everybody in your school community?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. We really love a strategy from Gym Knight that's just be a witness to the good because it is very easy to get sucked into negative conversations or just negative experiences. But if you are constantly having gratitude, appreciation, and just really having a lens that you're looking for the good that is happening in your environment. And I can tell you, I've worked in some pretty toxic environments, some of the lowest performing schools in the states that I've worked with. And there's a lot of really amazing good work happening that can get clouded by other things, right? And I think that that really helps people reframe and shift. I would also say another amazing strategy he has is find common ground, because when we are able to relate to each other and I mean find things personally and professionally that we agree on, you know, whether it's like, oh, we both like to cook, we both like to exercise, or we both have the same approach to coaching, it doesn't really matter. We have to really care about how we're aligned as humans in the work that we do. And I think that that to me always generates a lot of energy individually and collectively, because then like I have more energy to bring to the table, but then we can work together to be problem solvers and collaborators as a group.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's so important to just find those pieces that you can connect to because that will spark motivation and excitement. What are some things that you do when that feels hard, right? Where you're like kind of feeling like at a stuck point. Like, how am I going to connect to this person? Cause we don't see eye to eye on certain things. And so, because I've encountered that this past school year where it was a little tricky to find some common places to see eye to eye on what we were doing, or you know, maybe we didn't have to necessarily see eye to eye, but it was hard to find the place of like, what's the the thing that's going to connect us to move us forward? So, what are some strategies that you have or things at work?
SPEAKER_04:I don't know about you, but I find that when I start to have an agenda, like my own personal agenda, that's where conversations go sideways or that's where friction aligns. And in coaching, it's like, it's not about my agenda. It's not about what I want. Right. So I think that I have to, I have to ask myself in my head all the time, like in coaching conversations, like, wait, is this what I want or is this what they want? And I think literally just asking myself that mentally helps remove some friction. That being said, I have had experiences with people where, like, if they're truly toxic or damaging, you don't engage. It's like you got you, those are not people you want to spend time with. And there's a certain point where the work is going to be impacted. I don't know. What I mean, what do you think about that?
SPEAKER_03:I think that's such a good point when you separate your agenda from theirs, because I can I can definitely pinpoint a couple of conversations with a t a teacher in particular, where I'm like, oh, maybe I'm maybe I'm pushing too hard, but I'm also trying, you know, like you also try to think bigger picture and the impact of what's happening right then impacts kids, right? So it was hard to kind of get that point across. But that yeah, like I did have to, I did have to like step back and think about my approach and how I was becoming maybe I was like too forceful, but then at the same time, it's like, but this is part of my job, right? Like my job is to help people move forward. And so I'm like, is it them or is it me? I'm not sure. So is that is there a bit of toxicity in there? Potentially, yes. And like, but like I had to engage. It was part of like, you know, he was on my roster. And so I had to like step back a little bit, but I do think that's an important thing to ask ourselves is like who's this for? What's what's the long term for this? And like, how far am I gonna get with the time that I have? So yeah, that's super tricky. How about you, Christine? Anything come up there?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was just it was making me reflect on. So I'm in curricula more on the curriculum end of rather than instructional coaching. But there's some overlap there, I think. But there we had some changes coming, and I had thought a lot and I talked to the team a lot about let's not go into this having a pre-arranged agenda for an end product in our minds. Like, let's make sure that we accept whatever this looks like in the end. We're gonna get there together, we're gonna decide together, but don't have your own vision that you are determined to stick with. So we'd done that kind of thinking and work, but I realized along the way that I had actually got my attachment to how I wanted it to go. So even though we talked about like don't get a picture in your mind of the end product, I'd still attach myself and had an agenda about how we were gonna get there. And so it just reminded me of that of agenda can be different things, right? It doesn't necessarily have to be what we're gonna be doing in a year's time. It can also be the methodology or the pedagogy that you that you use as well. So it definitely made me think about that.
SPEAKER_03:This kind of makes me think a bit about things and times when we need to say no, and is this one of them? And when are some other points in the role where you have identified like I can't do this, or it's this isn't a me thing. So can you talk us a little bit through on that? Because that's tough for a lot of people to, you know, put things on a back burner or say no, not right now, and that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I definitely am like a recovering survivor of saying yes to everything all the time. That was definitely me. And it's definitely not me anymore. And I find that my work is so much more intentional and focused now that I've learned how to say no. And I think it's because also I've spent a lot of time working with many different people in education and learning what their strategies for saying no are and staying focused in like really frantic, frenetic environments where it can be hard to like stay focused on the important work. So my favorite phrase, frankly, just like in the moment, when people ask me to do something and I'm like, in my heart, I know maybe I don't have enough time, or it's it's just like not the most important thing. I I have no idea where this phrase came from. So I didn't create it, but it is my heart says yes, but my calendar says no. And a lot of my coaching clients, like, we practice that, like, say it with me right now. And it's even a joke sometimes that we'll say, like, to each other, like, my heart says yes, but my calendar says no. And so it's like a common language. And I I even used it yesterday in real life. I was going somewhere where I knew that I was gonna be pressured to spend a little bit outside my budget. So I use the term my heart says yes, but my bank account says no. And they took it. And I was like, oh, this is great, totally transferable. So I think that's a really effective phrase. I think also just being like really aware that most of us are likely to overcommit and underdeliver. And once you admit that to yourself and you really analyze where you want to spend your time, you get more comfortable saying no. Like just start saying no. Like, wish I could, but I can't, right? Just start saying no. And then you'll find that less people actually come to you because when you're the person who says yes all the time, they're always they're just gonna assume that you're the first one to go to. And I like when I was a new coach, I was also like chaperoning dances and going on field trips and doing all the things because those are the things I love about school. But there are times I've learned where I can do that, and times where I just need to like pull myself back and just say no.
SPEAKER_01:That's such a great idea to have a ready-to-go sentence that you you don't need to feel like you're floundering in that moment to think of what to say. But if you've got something ready to go, I can imagine that that would be so useful, so helpful. We definitely talk quite a bit, don't we, Tammy, about aligning what you're using your time for with your priorities.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. And that phrase was like really hitting me right now because it's although it's the like as we're recording this, it's the end of the school year. And you know, we're thinking ahead to like who are who's on our rosters for next year. And like July is such a crazy time where you get these like last minute stuff coming in, and you're like, I want to, but like I need 47 days in July. Then, or like, you know, like it's just not possible to fit all the work in, even though it's great to, you know, have the people reaching out and asking for the support, but like realistically, it's just not possible. And so I know, Lindsay, you have some like really fun hobbies to help balance your professional self with like your personal life. And I mean, I know balance is somewhat of a false thing, but you do some fun stuff. Can you like just give us a couple of the unique things that you do? Cause maybe this will give some people ideas for what they can do with their time.
SPEAKER_04:I do have some hobbies that I would also say are a bit time consuming. Number one, I ride horses several times a week. And so I love that because A, like I get to be around animals around horses, but I am also going to have an area where there's no cell service and I you can't be like playing on your phone when you're on a horse. So it is a way to absolutely give my brain and body a reset and get outside. I also am on the board of directors here in Las Vegas for the FBI Citizens Academy, and this is my 11th year as part of the FBI Citizens Academy. So I volunteer my time basically being like a brand ambassador for the FBI, and it's always like an adult field trip. We get to go to like behind the scenes tours of just some really interesting places. I ran a 5k at the state prison one time with the inmates. You know, there's some just like really interesting ways to support your community in a different way that are completely separate from education, but I find that they they build me up for the job that I do on a daily basis. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, for sure. Sorry, Christine. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_01:That is just that is so cool. You don't hear that very often at all. Like I was like horse riding, awesome, you're getting active, you're getting outside, you're having a complete debrief, but I was not expecting FBI. So that was a very cool twist for us, Lindsay.
SPEAKER_04:I I love that I know it sounds kind of crazy, but there's a lot of crossover from like coaching and what I've learned in FBI, like because I get to take a lot of classes through the FBI. And recently we got to hear a really amazing presentation from like a lead polyographer, you know, the person who does the polygraph tests and does like you know, the investigative questioning when when suspects are like in the room. And all I heard was coaching questions, open-ended questions, right? And looking at body language and how to build trust quickly, you know, like there was so much crossover.
SPEAKER_03:That's so interesting. So that kind of leads me to one more question before you can you give us a paradigm pointer. You're writing another book, and is so are you using some of these questioning tactics in your book? Oh, that's a good question.
SPEAKER_04:We are writing a presenter survival guide, essentially, for anyone in education who leads group work, working title, which hopefully we'll have out by the end of the summer, the fall, maybe. But really it's again, it's like a very similar vibe in that there are all these common dilemmas and thorny situations that come up when we're leading groups. And so we just went out, collected stories and strategies from people in the field. Like, what do you do when you have to lead a big presentation, but there's only one bathroom, you know, or there are just so many, like this the room is small and cramped, or maybe like you have imposter syndrome. There's just a lot of things that we talked with folks about. Now, in terms of integrating FBI strategies, I don't know. Actually, now you're giving me an idea. I think I might have to.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I love that. That's awesome. So, yes, as as you tummy mentioned, we have the peer-down pointer at the end of the episode. So it could be something building on what you've already talked about, but just a nice peer-down pointer for our audience members.
SPEAKER_04:I think for me, my pear-down pointer is just that people aren't motivated by your goal goals, they're motivated by other or by their own goals. And so when we're talking about motivation or how to keep the focus, it really just is about remaining objective and allowing people to work through their own goals and supporting them in that work.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you. That is a great reminder for me. And I know many people will take that in and say, yes. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here today, Lindsay. It was a great conversation. Thanks so much for having me.
SPEAKER_01:This episode is sponsored by Next Adventure EduCoaching. Expert advice, holistic support. Whether through book talks, coaching retreats, or personalized memberships, Next Adventure EduCoaching empowers instructional coaches with fresh ideas and practical tools to grow, collaborate, and lead with confidence. Start your next professional learning adventure at educoachsurvivalguide.com.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for listening to the Minimalist Educator Podcast. Join Christine and Tammy and guests again next time for more conversations about how to simplify and clarify the responsibilities and tasks in your role. If today's episode helped you rethink, reimagine, reduce, or realign something in your practice, share it in a comment or with a colleague. For resources and updates, visit planzeducation.com and subscribe to receive weekly emails. Until next time, keep it simple and stay intentional.
