The Minimalist Educator Podcast
A podcast about paring down to focus on the purpose and priorities in our roles.
The Minimalist Educator Podcast
Episode 084: Trust Builds Better Teaching with Craig Randall
In this episode, we explore how trust-based observations replace ratings with strength-focused coaching that actually improves teaching. Craig Randall shares practical steps leaders can use to build trust, save time, and spark real growth in classrooms.
• origin of trust-based observations and mentor influence
• why rating pedagogy harms culture and lowers efficacy
• minimalist nine-element form for precise, strengths-based feedback
• micro-actions that lower threat and build trust
• time math: 20+20 model versus six-hour cycles
• navigating policy while shifting culture and practice
• tipping point adoption, results, and union interest
• future directions: trust-based leadership and coaching
• pared down pointer: stop write-ups, prioritize brief cycles
This episode is sponsored by Plan Z Education Services.
Find our book The Minimalist Teacher and Your School Leadership Edit: A Minimalist Approach to Rethinking Your School's Ecosystem at the links!
Follow on Instagram @PlanZEducation and @minimalist_ed_podcast.
The Minimalist Educator Podcast is a Plan Z Education Services adventure.
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator podcast, where the focus is on a less is more approach to education. Join your hosts, Christine Arnold and Tammy Musiowski, authors of The Minimalist Teacher and your school leadership edit, a minimalist approach to rethinking your school ecosystem. Each week, as they explore practical ways to simplify your work, sharpen your focus, and amplify what matters most so you can teach and lead with greater clarity, purpose, and joy.
SPEAKER_03:On this week's episode of the podcast, we are joined by Craig Randall talking to us about trust-based observations. His peer-down pointer is all about how to use our time effectively. Craig Randall is the developer and author of Trust-Based Observations. Craig has spent the last 30 plus years in education working as a counsellor, coach, teacher, and principal. Craig spends the majority of his time training school leaders Trust-Based Observations, or TBO, building mastery and transforming the world of teacher observations to a model of trust and support that fosters growth mindsets, cultures of trust, and collective teacher efficacy in action. In addition, Craig speaks at conferences, is working on a new book, and hosts the 20 Minutes of Teaching Brilliance, On the Road with Trust-Based Observations Podcast.
SPEAKER_02:Christine and I are talking with Craig Randall today, and we are very excited to have you here today. Craig, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks. I'm super excited to be here too. I like the theme of what you guys are doing.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you. You do some really interesting work around a bunch of things, which we'll get into. But can you give us a little bit of background to kind of how you got into your focus around teacher observations?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I really started out as a school counselor, did some college basketball coaching, went overseas to work in an international school. The principal there, one of the principals, said I think you'd make a great principal. And really, when I started my principal certification program, I met the man who became my mentor. And he in supervision class said you need to be in classes every day, supporting teachers, helping them grow, focusing on strengths, asking them what they were doing to help students learn, what they might do differently. And it was, for me, I always say it was like the combination of that hallelujah music and the light bulb at the same time. And we practiced observation every single day in that class. We'd bring many lessons. And I never ever talked to anyone that in supervision class ever practices, which is almost like going out to teaching without student teaching. Not exactly, of course, but there's there's similarities. And so I got my first assistant principal job in an international school in Korea, actually. And I had a boss that was I was lucky enough to tell him I had this crazy idea. And he said, great, let's do it. And I didn't know anything about anything really except this. But teachers loved it right away. They loved, I think, that we didn't start by telling, we started by asking questions, which in essence is saying, I value you and what you think as a professional. So let's start there. And they loved for sure that it was strengths-based. And I'll tell you, I again, I didn't know anything, but people, teachers, new and older, saying, You're the best principal I ever had. And I it wasn't me. It was just this different tweak on observations was so dramatically different than what they had before that they felt that. And then really it just evolved and evolved and evolved. And somewhere along the way, not even really knowing I was involving anything, an elementary principal I worked with said you need to protect your work. And I was like, What? And then I thought, oh wow. I and then I presented at a conference, wrote an article, and then turned it into a book.
SPEAKER_03:I had my mic off there, but when you said get in classrooms every day, I actually made a noise when you said that. Because I was like, oh my God, yes, that is just such a it's a simple thing, but so important just to be there, be present, and be with everyone for sure.
SPEAKER_01:And as long as it's from a strength-based perspective, and because the reality is the way we're doing it now, and I'm not berating the models, they're well intended, but Daniel Marzano, et cetera, when you're rating pedagogy, it becomes a deficit mindset thinking. And so when we come in in that mindset, teachers freeze and they panic. And that's not that's not good for culture, that's not good for anybody. But when you come in and then they know the next day we're gonna have a talk about all this great stuff I saw, then people actually, believe it or not, because it sounds so counterintuitive, think, wow, this is great that you're coming into my class.
SPEAKER_03:So, yeah, there is so much fear around these observation cycles, aren't there? So, how do we move from, if you're in a culture already that it is very coming from a judgmental standpoint, how do you move it to this strength-based, supportive, building trust sort of dynamic instead?
SPEAKER_01:Well, ditch what you're doing and do trust-based observations. Duh. It's it's tough because depending on what your setting is, sometimes there's laws or requirements around that. And so sometimes the truth is in public schools, we have to finesse. And many of the public schools we do do finesse. And we're working on changing laws, but we know that's not going to be overnight. But I'll tell you right now, research is pretty clear. The way we've been doing it isn't improving teaching and learning. Two huge studies have said that. But they also say, and this is maybe the more important part to what you're talking about, Christine, is the research says that it increases teacher dissatisfaction. It actually causes harm. It makes them have a lower sense of worth. And maybe the there's a guy named Matt O'Leary in the UK. He interviewed over 4,000 teachers. His research showed that it actually lowers teacher's sense of self-efficacy the way we're doing it now. That's the exact opposite. If Hattie's collective is our highest effect size, which by the way, he does say trust-based observations is collective teacher efficacy in action, just have to share that. And so we have to change what we're doing, and we have to make it strengths-based. We have to take out the rating of pedagogy. We can still evaluate people on things like professionalism and how I get along with others, my mindset towards growth, things like that. But my teaching moves, that's my pedagogy. So when I put a score on that, man, and and and the scores don't mean anything because they don't improve teaching and learning, but people get mad when they get a proficient. And it's a, it's, it's, it's a ridiculous. Like, I don't even like to acknowledge that we have a conversation about it because it's almost honoring something we shouldn't be honoring because it doesn't improve teaching and learning. So stop writing pedagogy. Start focusing on strengths. When we rate pedagogy, I'm going to say this it makes us, it turns us into deficit mindset thinkers. We start to look at what's wrong with our teachers instead of what's right. But trust takes time too. So we have to take time and not feel like we have to offer suggestions right away. Like we know things like the compliment sandwich, two stars and a wish, glows and grows. Like Adam Grant had a really nice article saying those don't work. And the reason they don't work is because people are smart and know they know the only reason you're saying the nice thing is so they can do what they really want and tell you what to fix. Without trust, the needle isn't gonna move.
SPEAKER_02:You're bringing up such resonating points right now, where it's like dinging in my head. Because as an external coach that comes in to work with teachers, I I love that role because I'm not evaluative. I get to truly work with teachers. And but it's really hard to train them into the strength space, thinking around what they're doing. And so I find sometimes even myself where, you know, they're sucking me into their kind of like negative thought training. I'm like, oh, I gotta pull myself out of this. That's not actually what we were just talking about. I'm trying to like build you up here. Like I just saw some great things. Let's talk about that. Let's talk about how we can share those things. So, what are some things that you do? And it could be like coaching questions or you know, activities that to to break that negative or desit thinking thought cycle, because it's so ingrained in us.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I'll tell you. So, our form, one, not reading pedagogy helps a lot, just that. But our form only has nine areas of pedagogy, and research says any more than 10, you lose the force through the trees. Danielson has 76, Marzano has 60. And again, they're well-intended, but then we'd stop seeing teaching. Our form is so detailed that it allows us to really pinpoint specific things, actions that teachers are taking that are strengths-based actions. Like it could just be a specific praise comment, or or it could be like a quiet attention signal, like little things. But when I can identify specifically what you're doing and point it out to you while we're going over that form, it it really, really starts to build you up. And when we're training people, it's pretty common, not pretty common, it's not uncommon to have leaders on like Monday and Tuesday, we do week-long training, say, okay, but when are we gonna? And we're like, but we're playing the long game. We've got 20 years now of research saying this isn't working. If I have to wait 12 or 14 weeks before I offer a suggestion, but now the trust is there, and then it'll start to hit them, and you'll start to see them over the course of a week go from looking at what's wrong to what's right. And then their shift is it, it's almost automatic. But then when I think this too, when you see teachers, at the end, when we train people, we always say, Hey, now that you've had this, what do you think to the teachers? And they'll say two main things. One, oh my gosh, it's so nice to have my bucket filled. Like we just don't hear what we do right. Because when you're ratings, it just doesn't come across like that, even if it's intended that way. And so they say that and the trust starts to happen right away. So they even start to think about what I should get better at without even saying anything. So I think though, really what we're talking about, Brenee Brown talks about the connection between vulnerability, trust, and risk taking. She says for people to take risks, vulnerability has to be lowered. The way that we do that is by building trust. And she has a great analogy of a jar, and each action that we do is putting a marble in that jar. And we have to fill that jar before that vulnerability is low enough. And so, in our reflective conversation, because that's really where the trust building magic happens, which is counterintuitive to think about it like that, because it's so been the opposite way. We do all these little actions, like one, we have the conversation in the teacher's room. We say, Whether you're 7, 17, or 37, getting called to the principal's office feels like getting called to the principal's office. They feel safer in their space. We ask permission. Hey, is now a good time when we get to the room? I could just come in and say, let's do it. But that little courtesy builds trust. We sit beside you, not across from you, because people feel more comfortable that way. We tell them the goal of trust-based observations is to build enough trust so any of us can observe you, see you trying something new, have it be a train wreck, but as opposed to a traditional observation where you'd be freaking out, you're not worried because you know the next day I'm gonna say, Tammy, I love it that you were trying something new. High five, fist bumper, whatever. We say, because when we create those conditions, what are you gonna do? Keep trying something new. And we it just keeps going on and on. There's all these very specific actions that build trust. And then when you see your teachers start to flip like that, all of a sudden you flip too.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's very cool. I like that. All those different little puzzle pieces almost that come together to to they seem like nothing, but they're cumulative and they build up.
SPEAKER_01:And when you redo it repeatedly and you're not offering suggestions right away, we know this as teachers. We all get into it because we want to make a difference in the lives of young people. We know there's a percentage that's not small that kind of lose their way and become more set in their ways along the along the path for all kinds of reasons. Toxic observations is a is a good one. Sometimes just stuff at home. What we find is I don't want to say 100%, but almost every teacher that's like that, they will flip and then when it's time, be really open to our supported suggestions. It's it's amazing the power of just changing what we're doing. It's it's almost like behavioral science, really. I mean, I didn't think about it like that when I was doing it, but it just transforms everything.
SPEAKER_03:So, what would you say if you if you had someone in a leadership position or a coaching position or so on who who's like, I just don't have time. I really don't have time to go in there all the time and then have the conversations. Like, do you have a a short version or a quick tip that people could do if they're really feeling strapped for time?
SPEAKER_01:I'm gonna have us think about our time differently. And so what I'm gonna say is this is so if we have to do maybe not a coach, because your coach's job should allow you the time to do that. But if you're a principal or an assistant principal, fair enough. There are things that you have to do, and we know the urgent versus the important and all that. But if we were to take like a traditional formal observation, and like I know in Chicago Public Schools to do one round of Danielson with the pre-observation conference, the write-up I have to do after, the observation, the write-up I have to do after, the post-observation conference is the write-up I have to do after, that's six hours. Our cycle is 20 minutes and 20 minutes. 20 minute observation, 20 minutes. I can do nine observations in the exact same amount of time. But I'm gonna say this too. If our number one job is improving teaching and learning, which is what I believe it is, to prepare students for adult success, then we have to prioritize time. Does that mean sometimes we have to look at our time? With AI now, I mean, they ought to be doing most of our email work, that combined with my office manager, right? I mean, we have to look and manage that. But I'm gonna add this piece as well. If what has been a drudgery because it hasn't been fun to do, because I don't want to, I don't want to offer it, I don't want to tell somebody that they're below average when they want something good, and I don't want to have to spend all that time writing up. But now instead of that, I get to watch my teachers react with joy. All of a sudden, I it's easier to find the time too. But then when I start to see then I offer that suggestion and they adopt it, and then you start to see the growth in their practice again, it's so much easier to find time when you're seeing success.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. So my question is there's probably no magic answer here, but how do you shift the mindset within school leaders to make this type of shift? So this model of observation and the time use, because I too am that person where like I don't need to be in a classroom, you know, for a full period. I love to because I love to interact with the kids if I'm if that's part of the situation. But I really just need 20 minutes and then a 20-minute conversation afterwards that's really, really focused, but it's but that's not the culture necessarily everywhere. So how do you shift that? What's what's your magic sauce potentially?
SPEAKER_01:Look, I think that's hard. And I don't think there's there's a simple answer. I I think I think if we talk about about change, and there's Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book called Tipping Point, and he talks about change. And I'm hoping we have a tipping point with trust-based observations, and this is the way teachers love it. I mean, it's just so much happier. Like the union in Washington, I just spoke to a local representative who wants me now to get in touch with our Washington Education Association lobbyists to start to move it. So I think that's a good thing. But the five, there's five stages towards a tipping point. The first stage are the innovators. And those are the people that'll maybe see a social media post on trust-based observations or read the first three chapters and go, oh my gosh, I'm I'm I'm reaching out to Craig. And then the next stage is the early adopters. And those are the people that are almost the same way, but they're like, I don't know, it's new. But then, oh, you did it? Oh, good, I'm gonna do it too. And if I'm being totally transparent right now, that's where we're at, is just those two stages. And I think somehow, someway, there's a a tipping point to use the title of the book, where the next stage is early majority, then late majority, and then laggards. I always say I never want laggards to do trust-based observations. But I think for the early majority, I think like, like I think you just have to have exposure multiple times and multiple times and multiple times, and you start to hear like we have a school in California that a district in California that they just rose seven and a quarter percent in math and 12 and 3 quarter percent in ELA. And then we just have someone, the next person that says, all right, I'm gonna do it too. And then at a certain magical point, at least according to Malcolm Gladwell, then you hit that next stage where now all of a sudden it'll be more of a mass of doing it. Like we're on the verge of doing something with a county that's maybe 70,000 students, and and I don't want to name the name until we're all the way there with it. But we think if we get something big like that, and it's also working with some universities where there's research involved, that'll happen too. But I think like that's the broad answer. But if we're going to talk about maybe, I'm not sure that's helpful really in some ways to our conversation. Sorry, maybe I went there for nothing. But what I'll say is if you're out there and you're a leader and you're thinking about it, what do you have to lose? We've got 25 years, a Gates Foundation, Annberg Study, that's literally say no improvement. And then we have all this other research that says causes harm. I know you don't want that. I know as a leader, you want to inspire your people, you want to make them, you want to foster growth, you want them to be risk takers, you want more improvement. And change is hard and change is scary. And you know what? Our weekline training at site in your building, it's full on and it's exhausting. But then you see this. So man, you just jump, take the leap. Get get past what's holding you back. And that that's really the most practical thing I think I can say.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's it's hard to argue with that logic, isn't it? You know, if you've got happier teachers in the building who are engaged and then the outcomes for the kids are better, and then I'm sure your leadership feels better, your parent community is gonna feel better. I mean, it just seems like retention is stronger.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. You know, we're in a time of teacher shortage.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. You seem like someone who is a lifelong learner yourself. So now that you've you've seen the light with observations and and where we've been, where we want to move to, what's your next frontier? What do you want to find out more about? What are you excited about?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I feel really lucky because I I I have a mission now. Like, this is till the day I die. Like, if you are gonna I I've got friends that are close to retirement. And we're like, what do you golf? Are you kidding me? Every Friday I get to have people tell me how great I am because of this thing. Like, why would I give up that for golf? And so what I'll tell you a few things. That one, every single week when I'm training a school, someone I'm training will say something that makes trust-based observations better and it tweaks every single week. So I feel so lucky that one, that I'm open-minded to it, but then all these other people make it better. But I'll say one, I've started when this whole thing developed, I never thought about it as leadership. I never thought about it as culture of just what I did. But I've really in the last few months realized really, trust-based observations is really about leadership. So I'm I'm working on a book now that's maybe trust-based leadership, uh, an observation journey. And and but I also want to create a trust-based coaching model because it's it's the same thing. And and and it also addresses blind spots because we all have blind spots, like I just said, because people tell me every week. And I think sometimes the traditional coaching model of just letting them find it on their own doesn't always lead to the blind spots. But then the other one that really resonates with me is what about above that, that on the supervision level? What about a principal to an assistant principal, a regional superintendent to a principal, a superintendent to anybody at the central office? Because the same principles have to apply. Because right now, central's putting so much pressure on principals because of our score obsession or whatever, then that trickles down and the principals feel the same tension. So those are other book ideas that I'm sort of ruminating and that people ask about pretty regularly.
SPEAKER_02:So that's awesome. That's a logical sequence of events, it sounds like, honestly. We're at the point of our show where we ask our listeners for a pared down pointer. So it could be something that you mentioned already, or it could be another tip that you have for our listeners, where you know, just it's kind of a simple strategy that people can can walk away with in terms of trust-based observations or getting to that point at least.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I think it does have to do with with time and and time spent. And like many models of observation right now, like when I don't see evidence of something, now that's on that teacher to write up and submit documentation for why I actually do that, even though you didn't see that. Like, if we're gonna be minimalist and use our time productively, like how can we be asking people for that? Like, let's stop that. Let's just trust that they're gonna get there, or I'm gonna coach you to get there. And then if if I'm an observer, like being more minimalist, like what would I rather do? 20 minutes and 20 minutes? Or would I rather like who likes to write up reports? Raise your hand. Yeah, nobody. So let's stop that. Let's make our lives simpler and more joyful. And if we change what we're doing to support our teachers, then that makes our lives more joyful and their lives more joyful.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you for bringing up that last point of the joy of it, because for some reason it seems like if something is joyful, something is wrong. So we should like do the opposite, make things harder, or you know, keep doing that harder thing that we don't actually need to do. So that simplification tip is yeah, that's gold for us. Thank you so much for bringing being with us today, Craig.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you. It was a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_03:This episode is sponsored by Plan Z Education Services, supporting educators with forward-thinking professional learning that puts both student impact and teacher wellness at the center. Driven by a vision to teach less, impact more, they help educators find purpose, prioritize what matters, and simplify their practice. Learn more at planzeducation.com.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for listening to the Minimalist Educator Podcast. Join Christine and Tammy and guests again next time for more conversations about how to simplify and clarify the responsibilities and tasks in your role. If today's episode helped you rethink, reimagine, reduce, or realign something in your practice, share it in a comment or with a colleague. For resources and updates, visit plan zeducation.com and subscribe to receive weekly emails. Until next time, keep it simple and stay intentional.
