The Minimalist Educator Podcast
The Minimalist Educator Podcast
Episode 054: Simplicity in Online Programs Naomi Church and Sarah DeCotis
Can you imagine navigating a world where your child's education is simplified and more effective? Join us on the Minimalist Educator Podcast as we uncover how to streamline online educational programs with the help of our insightful guests, Naomi Church and Sarah DeCotis from Age of Learning. Naomi, an expert educator and national math curriculum specialist, and Sarah, a national literacy director, share their wisdom on managing the overwhelming number of ed tech tools in schools. With the typical school district juggling around 1,400 different programs, they reveal the critical need to reduce this number to ensure smooth implementation and ease of use for everyone involved. They highlight the power of selecting research-backed, evidence-based programs to genuinely enhance the educational experience while keeping things straightforward and efficient.
We dive into pragmatic strategies for prioritizing and implementing educational programs amid a sea of available platforms and technologies. Emphasizing a minimalist approach, we explore how to choose the most effective programs backed by robust research and efficacy studies, particularly those vetted by third-party organizations. Our conversation includes practical tips for gathering user feedback, conducting pilot tests, and ensuring alignment with school or district goals. Naomi and Sarah also stress the importance of high-quality professional learning to guarantee successful program implementation, focusing on quality over quantity. Tune in to learn how to make informed decisions that maximize resources and significantly improve student learning outcomes.
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Welcome to the Minimalist Educator Podcast, a podcast about paring down to refocus on the purpose and priorities in our roles with co-hosts and co-authors of the Minimalist Teacher Book, Tammy Musiewski-Bornemann and Christine Arnold.
Speaker 2:In this episode, we talk to Sarah and Naomi from Age of Learning about online programs. They speak with us about how to ensure online programs are purposeful, efficient and research-based. Naomi Church is a speaker, author, experienced educator and credentialed coach. She served in the sixth largest school district in the nation for almost 20 years as a professional development specialist, math intervention specialist, rti coordinator, instructional coach and teacher leader. Naomi developed statewide training in mathematics for struggling learners and differentiated math instruction in collaboration with the Florida Diagnostic and Learning Resources Center.
Speaker 2:As the president of Learning Forward Florida, naomi is helping to re-envision professional learning for educators to maximize engagement, value and implementation. In her current role as the National Math Curriculum Specialist for Age of Learning, naomi serves as a thought leader and change agent, translating the core values of Age of Learning educational products into transformative practice in classrooms, schools and districts. Sarah Dacotis is an accomplished educator and district leader with over 15 years of experience in Broward County Public Schools, the sixth largest district in the nation. Throughout her tenure, she has held various roles, including general education teacher, interventionist, reading coach, rr coordinator, professional learning specialist and district administrator. Today, sarah serves as National Literacy Director at Age of Learning, a leading educational technology company. As a company spokesperson on the science of reading, she has designed, developed and facilitated high-value presentations on all things literacy for district superintendents, chief academic officers and other executive district leaders at various national speaking engagements.
Speaker 3:Hello everyone and welcome to today's episode of the Minimalist Educator podcast. Today, christine and I are excited to have not only one guest with us, but we have two, and we are happy to have Naomi Church, who is one of our first guests on the podcast, and with her today is her colleague, sarah Dakotas, and together they are representing Age of Learning. Welcome to the podcast today, ladies.
Speaker 4:Thank you. Thank you for having us.
Speaker 5:Thank you, I'm super excited to be back.
Speaker 3:Thank you for being here. How are you today, Christine?
Speaker 2:I'm doing good. I'm excited to chat with these very experienced and knowledgeable ladies.
Speaker 3:Me too. Me too, I'm excited. Well, I'm always excited to talk to Naomi about stuff because she just is brilliant with things. But I'm interested because the first time that you were on, we talked about some of the work you do within your math specialty, and we're going to continue to talk about that, but from a slightly different lens because you're in a different role with this company. So we're excited to talk about some of the work that you do with Age of Learning, because we know that choosing appropriate programs for schools is really tricky and we want to. You know, we're all about, like purposeful spending and making sure that programs are meeting the needs of learners in schools. So you know we're going to talk about some of those choices that schools can make. So the first question is for you, naomi there's a lot of online programs that are used in schools all over, not just the US, but all over the world. What are you seeing and experiencing now in schools with regard to some of these online programs?
Speaker 5:Yeah, there are a ton of programs in use and, according to the data from Learn Platform by Instructure, the average school district has 1,400 different ed tech programs in use. So that is stuff that teachers bring in, websites and programs that individual principals and then that are brought in at the district level. So an average of 1,400. That's crazy, right, that's so many. And what happens is it's nearly impossible for district staff and school coaches to be able to support all of those programs so that you have fidelity of implementation.
Speaker 5:And we also see that parents can sometimes become overwhelmed with trying to access a lot of the different platforms on their end. So when my own children were in middle school, when my daughter started sixth grade, she had, let's see, six different teachers and there were four different platforms between the six teachers that they were using to communicate. So I had to go into all of these different apps to make sure I didn't miss a message from the math teacher or the science teacher, and certainly it becomes overwhelming. We can also see that sometimes there's an equity of access concern. So, with so many programs in use, if one teacher is really tech savvy and innovative and excited, he or she may be using several different programs, but then the teacher in the classroom or school next door doesn't want to deal with it or is too overwhelmed, and then those kids don't get exposure and access to the programs right. And so when we have less programs in play, we're certainly going to have better implementation and we're going to have happier parents and teachers and students.
Speaker 2:And, sarah, I know that you are very experienced as far as looking at educational research. Can you tell us a little bit about why it's so important for us, as educators, to really think about the research behind these online programs and, as Naomi mentioned, that fidelity aspect of it? How can we make sure we are doing it as the research tells us to do across all the different schools and classes and year groups and so on?
Speaker 4:Yeah, sure. So you want to consider, when making smart procurement decisions and when making decisions on what types of programs you're going to put in front of students and teachers, is it research backed? But you also want to consider the efficacy behind it and whether or not it's evidence-based as well. So there's this these terms that are being thrown out out there which is research-based and evidence-based. So I'll elaborate a bit more on the evidence-based, because I think that's what's really critical when making smart procurement decisions. And so you know, evidence-based or efficacy, these types of words it essentially just means that a program will deliver on the promises that it's making right, it'll ensure that the students will get the intended learning outcome that the program is claiming that they will. And so you want to make sure that you're looking for evidence of this efficacy.
Speaker 4:And there are a number of different methodologies to conduct these types of studies.
Speaker 4:You know there's case studies, there are correlational studies, where you might look at two variables and then examine the relationships between the two, and there's more rigorous types of studies, which are really hallmarks of a quality program if they have these studies and it shows that it's efficacious which are quasi-experimental designs.
Speaker 4:So in this type of study or this type of design. You're comparing different conditions. So you might compare a treatment group or a group that's getting the variable that you're studying whether it's a program or a practice and then a control group, a group that is not right, and this is where you can really start to see some level of effectiveness of the program. And then there's the gold standard, which is RCTs or randomized control trials, and this is when you randomly assign students to these two groups that I mentioned earlier, and this is considered a stronger level of evidence for a program that is working. So you wanna look for those types of studies when a program is claiming to make, or when a program is making claims on student achievement, to really know if you're making smart procurement decisions.
Speaker 3:And so, as someone with a background in literacy and the science of reading, how do you see the role of this research and the efficacy studies in guiding educator choices when selecting the programs or resources?
Speaker 4:Sure, it should definitely play a really significant role. So, as I mentioned earlier, you want to look for at least a quasi-experimental design or a randomized control trial. There are some other studies that are above those levels, but you want to start at the quasi-level. There are some correlational studies as well, which is good to have, but you want to make decisions on a robust suite of evidence or a body of evidence when procuring a program. Additionally, the importance of third-party validated research can't be overstated. So companies that partner with organizations like WestEd or SRI International, for example, provide independent assessments that lend credibility to a program's claim. So it's important that that aspect is also there, because companies conduct their own studies, but you want to eliminate any type of bias right, and so if they have partnered with a third party and it's been evaluated by that third party on the design and the rigor of the program, then you can take more stock in what this company is claiming to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was just thinking that, sarah. Sometimes they do their own research and say our findings of X, y and Z. Can we trust them or do we? Yeah, but I think that's a really good point to note that having an unbiased perspective is really helpful. And, naomi, last time you were with us, we were talking a little bit about Universal Design for Learning UDL. Can we use online platforms to support UDL in our schools, or is it not appropriate?
Speaker 5:Absolutely, we can use education technology to support the implementation of universal design for learning, and when we're choosing less programs to implement and we're very choosy about having these effective programs, we also want to make sure that they're universally designed, right? So, again, universal design for learning is a framework to improve and optimize teaching and learning for all people, based on insights into how humans learn, and so this UDL framework is really split into three main components, and those are engagement, representation and action and expression. So engagement is really the why of learning and that's where inspiration and motivation live, and we can have educational technology. We can have these programs that are engaging, that students want to be a part of. Right, they're asking to play, they just want to be involved with it, as opposed to sometimes it's like, oh, do I have to do another one? Right, there are certainly programs out there that kids are excited to interact with, as opposed to sometimes it's like, oh, do I have to do another one? Right, there are certainly programs out there that kids are excited to interact with.
Speaker 5:Another piece of UDL is representation.
Speaker 5:So that's multiple means of representation, and that is essentially showing things in all different ways, and you know that math is my thing.
Speaker 5:So, when it comes to math, we want to be showing the numbers and the problems in different ways, with different tools, with different pictorial and visual representations, because all of that contributes to building deeper conceptual understanding. And then the last piece of UDL is the multiple means of action and expression, which is essentially allowing students to show what they can do. We want to leverage their strengths so that they're able to show us what they do know as opposed to what they don't know, and we also want them to be able to do that with as few scaffolds as possible. Julie Dixon at the University of Central Florida talks about just-in-time scaffolding versus just-in-case scaffolding, and so you really want to make sure that the program that you're using isn't over scaffolding and denying students the opportunity to think deeply and figure things out for themselves. We want those just-in-time scaffolds where, when a student demonstrates a need for it, the scaffold appears, but if they don't need it, it's not there for them to peers, but if they don't need it, it's not there for them.
Speaker 3:That's so interesting to think about. I just had a conversation with someone recently about providing too much for students and not giving them the opportunity to try and access on their own. So I think those points are just so important. This next question is either of you want to give any points around this, but we know that teachers often seek advice right, so we want to have some autonomy with teachers in their programming and their planning, but they also need advice because they do get overwhelmed with the platforms and the technologies. There's just a lot happening so, and you know that we always talk about how do we prioritize and how do we choose the best things for us. So how would you, or what advice would you, give teachers or school leaders regarding how to prioritize and choose a program that align with like a minimalist principle, which is like finding the value in something, or making sure that you're aligning with your purposes within your school programming so that you're still ensuring the effectiveness in student learning outcomes?
Speaker 4:Sure. So I think that I'll reiterate what I mentioned earlier you definitely want to look for programs that are backed by strong research, that have validated efficacy studies, especially those reviewed by a third-party organization. You want to pay attention to the quality of those studies, so you want to prioritize the randomized control trial studies. You want to prioritize quasi-experimental designs over less rigorous methodologies, designs over less rigorous methodologies. But there are some other things that you can do. You can seek some user feedback from other educators that have had experience using the program, and having these real-world experiences can provide some valuable insights into how well a program would work in practice.
Speaker 4:Conducting and this is more for the district level, but conducting a pilot, you know, in your own district, before committing to full scale implementation. This will also allow you to see firsthand how the program performs with your students in your context, in your district. And speaking of that, you want to make sure that the program aligns with your school or your district's goals and priorities, to maintain focus and coherence within your educational initiatives. And then, less is more right, so you want to focus on quality over quantity. It's better to implement a few highly effective programs, and you know that, based on the studies and the research that it's backed up with, rather than to spread resources so thin and across so many initiatives that you can't implement anything well. So I think, if you follow those guidelines, you're on the right track to making some smart decisions.
Speaker 2:Did you have anything to add to that, Naomi?
Speaker 5:nope, she got it all.
Speaker 2:I was. I was going to ask you but maybe it's a very similar answer to what you just gave us there, sarah. Um, I was going to ask if, if you're in a school context that doesn't have a lot of financial resources and you really have to just choose one thing that's going to give you the biggest bang for your buck, as they say, would you still go with those same principles of like look at the research, look what your community needs, or is there some other thing that could help us choose one thing?
Speaker 4:No, absolutely those are definitely. They're even more important for districts that are in that position. But I will add that there are a lot of tools. You're not alone, right? So there is no governing body that puts a gold standard on a program that talk whether it's effective or not. So it really is up to districts and school leaders, and sometimes teachers, to make those critical decisions. So if you look for the hallmarks that I mentioned earlier and you know what to look for, you're certainly on the right step.
Speaker 4:But there are some resources that are readily available for decision makers to use to guide their decision making. The Reading League is a really fantastic organization when it comes to determining if a program is aligned to the science of reading. They have a lot of guidance documents and instructional review materials that'll take you step by step on red flags to look for and that'll sort of support you in this very difficult process. And there are other guidance documents that you know Louisiana, the Department of Education over there they put out Rhode Island Department of Education. So there's a lot of state documents that are out there that are available, that teachers and districts can use as well. It's what I used in Broward when I made those decisions as a district administrator, so it certainly helps.
Speaker 5:I do want to point out the importance of professional learning in getting a quality implementation right. So Sarah's talking about this procurement process, where we want to be very careful about the programs that we're choosing and bringing into our district so that we're spending our money and our valuable time on the programs that are most effective, that are going to be most meaningful and relevant for our students relevant for our students. But even if we have the best program, we need to roll out an implementation plan in order to have success. Right, you can have the best program, but if nobody's using it, we're not going to see the results, and so a key piece of that is high quality professional learning that educators and parents have to be clear on why the program is so great, why it was chosen, maybe even some of that efficacy research behind it, right, but then also professional development for the teachers and even parent sessions in how to access the data or get the most out of the program.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's such a good point because, you know, even when teachers are going to sessions, you don't know that it's going to be implemented whatever they've learned after they return to the classroom, and we have to ensure that that's the only way that change is made in classrooms and and kids get better quality of learning. So, um, thank you for bringing up that point. We're at the point in the show that we ask our guests for a pare down pointer, and it can be related to what we just talked about or it can be something that you bring up in your own work practices, but we are. If you have a tip that you can share with our listeners about you know how you prioritize or pare down in your own workflows or when you're communicating with your partners, or anything like that. We always look forward to hearing those from our guests like that.
Speaker 5:we always look forward to hearing those from our guests. Yeah, I think really it comes down to less is more for the pared out pointer right Choose less instructional online programs to use in your school and district, ensure that they're based in efficacy and that you have an implementation plan to ensure that they're successful. And it's going to be a whole lot easier to look into the background and implement fewer programs than it is to try to do that, certainly with 1,400 on average.
Speaker 4:I would also add that once you have the program and you've made a good decision and you feel good about it, it's important to make room for change right, make room for implementation, and so people are generally comfortable with the status quo, and introducing any new program or methodology can be met with some skepticism or pushback, and this is a very real context.
Speaker 4:And so this is where we should really leverage implementation science, which is a structured approach to help ensure that initiatives are thoughtfully planned and executed, and essentially, it's just the difference between letting something happen or making something happen, something happen or making something happen.
Speaker 4:So one critical step to that is looking at your existing programs and deciding what to de-implement, which involves identifying and removing existing practices that might not be working, that might not be backed by research, that you haven't had any success in, and this step creates the space and the room for lasting change that you're trying to make in your classroom, in your school, in your district, and it allows initiatives to be more effectively integrated. And then, you know, ensuring the fidelity of implementation. That's another crucial aspect, and this involves scaling the program through comprehensive professional development, like Naomi stated earlier, as well as ongoing supports for educators. Your professional learning plan should never be a one like touch and go. You want to have a plan to scale and sustain, and so you want to have a plan for those teachers that need ongoing support, and it should look different for every teacher.
Speaker 3:Thank you both so much for those tips. The de-implementation yes, yes, yes. Some more time needs to be spent in schools, just looking at what's in front of them and what they can just be like this does not add value for us. We need to let it go. Thank you, ladies, so much for this episode. It was really interesting to hear some of the research behind programs and just the thought processes in the work that you do. So thank you for being with us today.
Speaker 5:Thank you so much, it was a pleasure.
Speaker 2:This episode was brought to you by Age of Learning, leading the way in learning outcomes by helping children everywhere build a strong foundation for academic success and a lifelong love of learning. Find out more at ageoflearningcom.
Speaker 1:Be sure to join Tammy and Christine and guests for more episodes of the Minimalist Educator podcast. They would love to hear about your journey with minimalism. Connect with them at PlanZPLS on Twitter or Instagram. The music for the podcast has been written and performed by Gaia Moretti.
